Im having a hard time with this. I what if think all the time. Some are easier to get over and some just keep coming back. I am starting a new job tomorrow and cant seem to get the what if I cant do it crap out of my head!
I stop myself and try to change it into something less negative or give myself some positive feedback and maybe it will pass for a moment but always comes back later. I realize it takes time but I figured that after every frantic overload of what if and negitive thinking and then my calming myself down maybe they would slow down or have less of an effect. AAHHH!
any advice?

quote:

Originally posted by clk:
[qb]Im having a hard time with this. I what if think all the time. Some are easier to get over and some just keep coming back. I am starting a new job tomorrow and cant seem to get the what if I cant do it crap out of my head!
I stop myself and try to change it into something less negative or give myself some positive feedback and maybe it will pass for a moment but always comes back later. I realize it takes time but I figured that after every frantic overload of what if and negitive thinking and then my calming myself down maybe they would slow down or have less of an effect. AAHHH!
any advice?[/qb]

clk
Not always the case. Sometimes our habit of anxiety is bigger than we think. Persistence is in order. You are not going thru anything that I myself have not contended with. This is the road to recovery. Especially when there is a situation like your job change that feels somewhat risky to the anxiety.... meaning, pushing thru the anxiety to go to work will boost the self confidence and lower the anxiety- but there is still a fear of being healthy. Crazy, huh? The thought that we may fear getting stronger. How do you perceive being stronger? Does it mean more independence and freedom? Or does it mean lonely, more responsibility-less
help outcome? Keep asking yourself questions. It will lead you to your core thoughts and feelings. That is what you want to address. Your core fears.
Good luck.
Tammy

Tammy,
Can you expound on "core fears"?
Also can you give some examples?
Also, how does positive/cognitive therapy come into play in regards to exploring the core fears?
Thanks,
Joe

Here's something interesting for you to consider.

I work in the film industry as an assistant director (AD for short). We're the people on set who catastrophize and "what if" all day. Yes, I get paid to worry for hours on end.

"What if the child actor cries and we can't get the shot?" That's why the AD's hired triplets.

"What if it rains?" That's why we have an indoor "cover set" standing by.

"What if the animal actor can't perform his behaviors correctly." That's why we rehearsed the other scene in case we have to shoot it instead.

And so on, and so on...

It is stressful, and there are days when I get home exhausted after having my butt kicked.

Oddly enough, though, doing this kind of work isn't what triggered my anxiety/panic attacks in the first place. I had finished a show and was unemployed for several months without a job in sight. To make matters worse, I was in escrow on a house. Suddenly, the guy with the fallback plans had none. How in the world was I going to make a house payment without a job?! What if I never work again. What if they don't approve my loan because I haven't worked in several months? Etc, etc, until....

I met Mr. Panic Attack. And he hit me full force. No "what if" I ever encountered on set could compare with what happened the day of my first attack.

Flash forward almost two years later (I had my first panic attack in March 2002), and everything is fine. I am still working consistently, and can turn off the "what if's" when I get home from work.

I guess what I am trying to say is, no "what if" can ever really be THAT bad. I've seen things on set go ENTIRELY wrong and a shot that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars fail MISERABLY. And guess what? No one died and after the yelling subsided we laughed ourselves silly. OK, not silly, but we at least snickered out of earshot of the director.

Once you can wrap your mind around the "what if's" and see them for what they are--a pattern of negative thinking--you will retrain yourself to think in a different light.

You can do this.

Music therapy goes a long way in helping me and my husband with our anxiety. Try purchasing some relaxation cd's. Loreena McKennet is great as well as Van Morrison's "Sounds of the Silence" CD. Browse your CD store for relaxation tapes. They don't always have to be labeled as "relaxation" tapes. Check the labels.
Patty

quote:

Originally posted by thiefonthecross:
[qb]Tammy,
Can you expound on "core fears"?
Also can you give some examples?
Also, how does positive/cognitive therapy come into play in regards to exploring the core fears?
Thanks,
Joe[/qb]

Joe

Sorry for not seeing this post earlier. I did not mean to ignore it. I would like to answer it now if that's ok.
Core fears are those fears or beliefs that are the root cause of the anxiety that presents itself in many different anxious body symptoms and behaviors. I will give you an example working from the symptom back to the core fear: Say you have a feeling of dizziness for whatever reason. You feel the dizziness and instantly register the dizziness into a category -like brain tumor or aneurysm. You start locking that body symptom into a category which automatically sends your thoughts down a path of associated thoughts, feelings and beliefs. I'll give you an example of one of my personal thought paths. Dizziness = brain disease = failing health = inability to be productive = being a nonproductive person in society = decreased value by others = feeling lonely and unneeded = fear of being rejected and abandoned = feeling vulnerable and scared = darkness, death, loss of self. Not a pretty picture. But if you have a plan for comforting your core fear, you will want to go down that thought path so that you can get to the fear and intervene. I'll show you with the above example: Follow the thought path all the way to the darkness, death, loss of self. When I get there, I tell myself that I feel much better when I hear truthful,compassionate words. (this is why I instinctually seek out compassionate people when in a panic) So I begin to tell myself that there is really nothing to fear. Darkness, death, loss of self are temporary situations that are necessary for growth. I am special and loved. I am not alone. I have me. I am my own best friend. The light will be back. Just relax. Let it pass. There is no danger. Thoughts cannot harm me. Darkness cannot harm me. And like Lucinda said recently on the Robert Schuller Hour of Power - if you die, you'll go to be with God anyway, so there's no need to get upset. Once you start getting to the core of your anxiety - all other thoughts will start to align with your new thinking. This process takes much practice. It is not easy to go down the path to meet that core fear. You must be armed with lots of compassionate, honest dialog. Then you are ready to fight the good fight.

Again, I am sorry for missing this post. I hope I have understood and addressed your questions adequately.

Tammy

Thanks Tammy,
I have two questions I'd like to ask.
Does it seem to you that the key to overcoming this condition is to not fear the fear?
I know that this is over simplified. For example, lately, I am having a very hard time driving. I get to where I feel the need to pull over and try to gain composure. I agree with you about the spiraling thoughts that feed one another. Thats when the greatest fear comes...when those thoughts just keep spiraling downward. It can get so scary. Its at those times that my stomach is in knots, my throat feels tight, and the thought that I am going to die is facing me head on.
I guess my question is, Are we getting better by simply going through those times, learning by experience that we will not die, that it will pass? You know how it is...every time you go through another attack, you sometimes forget everything you've learned. It's kinda like its your first one, all over again. There are times when I feel that the only weapon I have is the willingness and the fortitude to continue to go through the panic....continuing to work,
continuing to run errands, etc.
Is this enough?? Will this willingness to go through the fear, get me through??
My second question is this: During the course of our recovery and battle with anxiety, do we become less and less tolerant of anxiety and panic, even though the intensity may not be where it once was?
For example, when I am driving, and I feel panic coming on, I don't think I pull over now because the feelings are more intense, but because I am so sick of feeling it, even if its not as bad as before. I used to be able to "ride it out" when it was seeemingly more intense. Now, I just pull over. I don't want to fight it anymore, you know?
But today while driving home, I was really anxious, and I just made up my mind that anxiety wasn't going to dictate to me, and I refused to pull over.
So is this self determination what gets us through?

Joe,
Great questions. The same questions I had when I was pushing through this fear.


Are we getting better by simply going through those times, learning by experience that we will not die, that it will pass?

Yes. You are getting better each time, getting more familiar with the process, learning that you will not die. However, you will not lose the intense anxiety if you continue to think negative, self critical thoughts. It says alot about your character that you continue to put yourself in anxiety-producing situations, but if anxiety is still overwhelming after repeated practice in a situation, it is an indication that you are not yet being very compassionate with yourself. You are still scaring yourself. You have not dealt with the core fear.

There are times when I feel that the only weapon I have is the willingness and the fortitude to continue to go through the panic....continuing to work,

You must stop right now and pat yourself on the shoulder (literally!) for all the hard work you have continued to do dispite overwhelming fear and pain. Your willingness and fortitude are enough. But like having physical strength, the benefits of being able to swing a hammer would depend on whether you are using it to build a beautiful new home or pound yourself on the head. Don't misuse your willingness and fortitude.

Is this enough?? Will this willingness to go through the fear, get me through??

Willingness is a gift. Willingness is essential to recovery. Willingness is powerful. But willingness by itself will not heal you. You need to have a focus for your willingness.

[I]My second question is this: During the course of our recovery and battle with anxiety, do we become less and less tolerant of anxiety and panic, even though the intensity may not be where it once was?
For example, when I am driving, and I feel panic coming on, I don't think I pull over now because the feelings are more intense, but because I am so sick of feeling it, even if its not as bad as before. I used to be able to "ride it out" when it was seeemingly more intense. Now, I just pull over. I don't want to fight it anymore, you know?
But today while driving home, I was really anxious, and I just made up my mind that anxiety wasn't going to dictate to me, and I refused to pull over.
So is this self determination what gets us through?[I]

To answer the above question, yes, we can become less tolerant of anxiety even though it is less intense. This is a good thing. With your driving example, you pulled over because you were tired of fighting the anxiety. Great! There are times when you SHOULD NOT fight anxiety. It is a sign of compassion toward yourself. If you feel nervous while driving, it is wise to build trust by occasionally letting yourself out of the situation. Otherwise, you will feel that trapped feeling and fear that you will be forced to drive no matter how terrible you feel. What if you had a real physical problem? Should you continue to drive? Are you weak just because you don't want to force yourself to do something unpleasant? or are you making a good choice for yourself?

In your second example when you decided to push through the fear and keep driving - you were chosing to fill yourself with your characteristic willingness and fortitude. But it was your choice. It was not fear deciding for you.

You got what it takes, Joe. Don't let anxiety fool you. You are strong. You are smart. You will get to where you want to be. You can take a break when you want or need to. Don't let fear nip at your heels and tell you that you have to keep pushing harder and harder and harder to recover. Loving yourself can even be fun and relaxing. We need to learn when to push through and when to sit back and let go. It's all good.

Tammy

Thanks Tammy,
I got alot out of your response.
I love when I am yet reminded just one more time that the essence of getting over this lies in loving and accepting ourselves.
There is so much freedom in that.
I was just thinking about the canvas of our mind, and how it seems that we find on that canvas things that are okay to think about, and things that we have deemed "not okay", thoughts we try to avoid.
And I think that when we can think about everything on that canvas, without fear, that is when we can accept ourselves.
I long to be able to love myself unconditionally.
I look forward to the day when I will not judge myself or put myself down any longer.
Thanks Tammy.
Joe

WOW! Powerful post!! I have been going through a growth spurt for the past week or so. I had a panic attack in Walmart last week and I was fine once I left the store. I had a good "bounce back" after that one and went on with my day. However, the anxiety has been building in me since this day even though I was proud of my efforts because I didn't leave the store, instead I pushed through the fear and did what I had to do and on top of that I didn't beat myself up for it.

Well, for days I've had this spacy, unreal feeling and it slowly creeped up on me and everyday seemed to get worse. My thoughts were scattered and I found myself "what-ifing" again and caused my body symptoms to increase.

Since I have struggled with agoraphobia and have had to challenge myself and my panic sensations, I have pushed myself hard to face my fears.

I was wiped out today from having a root canal. I am exhausted and in need of sleep ( yet here I am still awake?? Why do I do this to myself? ), I remembered I needed to get bread at the store but instantly told myself " I don't feel like it." Then that was followed by "nope. I can get bread...and I'll drive to the bread outlet store instead of the little store up the street"....
then that was followed by "I am anxious and tired. I don't feel much like driving." then that was followed by "are you afraid of those sensations? Then it's all the more reason to face those fears so I can prove it to myself that I'll be OK."....

Well I drove to the bread outlet store and I had such bad anxiety. I started "what-ifing" and my thoughts spiraled into a very uncomfortable place. I never did have a panic attack, but I did have some very uncomfortable feelings and even felt lightheaded, unreality, etc...and at one point, I asked myself "what if I pass out?...what if something IS medically wrong but I just won't allow myself to pull over ??"

See....sound familiar? I too push myself too hard!! I think learning to trust myself and to give myself permission to take a "breather" is a good idea and I should be more compassionate with myself than I am. Sometimes I feel like my own drill sergeant!!!!

Tammy, your post really opened my eyes to some mistakes I was making in my own recovery. I think for now, I can take a step back and just allow myself to relax and breath and accept that I am human and just FLOAT in my humanity for a while. FLOATING isn't just for lines at the store...floating is also for accepting ourselves "as is" even when we find ourselves in "beat up" condition.

Thanks for your boost! I needed that!

I long to be able to love myself unconditionally. I look forward to the day when I will not judge myself or put myself down any longer.

Joe - let that day be today. Just for one moment, love yourself unconditionally. Don't even think about how you are going to keep it up for another hour, another day, or the rest of your life. One precious present moment at a time. You will judge yourself and put yourself down at some point again - so don't even expect that you can accomplish NEVER doing it again - but trust that forgiveness and understanding will be there in the form of a higher power to set you back on the path of unconditional love.

It is one thing to speak words of trust, and really quite another to live actions of trust. May we continue to help each other in this goal.

For this moment,
Tammy

I think for now, I can take a step back and just allow myself to relax and breath and accept that I am human and just FLOAT in my humanity for a while. FLOATING isn't just for lines at the store...floating is also for accepting ourselves "as is" even when we find ourselves in "beat up" condition.

Well said, Sunset!

I just wanted to take a moment to thank ALL of you have have replied here....I cant begin to tell you how good I am feeling right now after having read all of the replies! I have been struggling and back sliding since New Years Eve when my husband cheated on me and I am sitting here reading all the posts and hearing in my heart what it is that has caused me to back slide. I am ready to cry here....but at the same time its a happy cry cause I can see that yeah it is ok for me to feel the way I do and its ok to feel lost cause I will not feel this way forever and if I just "float" with it and not try so hard I will get through it!!!! THANK YOU GUYS SOOOOO MUCH!!! take care......staciemoon

Thanks Tammy!

Today was a new day for me. My husband was home this morning and I had to go about 45 minutes away to pick something up at a health food store. Normally, when I don't sleep well the night before, I would just have my husband drive but something in me decided to face those horrible feelings I had the night before that caused me to feel so incapable. So I got into the drivers seat and drove the drive. I can't say that it was completely pleasant because I did have some anxiety over it and I kept telling myself that I could pull over in the breakdown lane if things felt bad enough and I would give myself permission to do so. It's so scary to experience that type of anxiety when your driving. I think we would all agree on that. But one thing I am learning is that everytime I experience those feelings, I am desensitizing myself little by little. Although it's uncomfortable, I am learning to become at peace with this discomfort. ( I don't know if that makes sense or not)...

Anyways....Joe, I just wanted to encourage you to keep up the hard work! I had no problem driving for the past year and here is the challenge again....I am looking at this as an opportunity to face the fears I have within me.
Be good to yourself and remember YOU are in control of your comings and goings...

Thank you Tammy and Sunset.
I had a very, very stress filled day today.
I panicked off and on all day.
But fortunately I had tape #8 to listen to.
By the end of the day I was starting to accept the idea that the BODY SYMPTOMS WILL NOT HURT ME.
That is the key for me.....because once I start to fear the body sensations, its all downhill from there.
How can you like yourself when you are constantly fearing your body's feelings?
At least, if you can NOT FEAR the symptoms, you can take pride in riding it out.
I thought that I would be farther along by now, but I just have to accept the body sensations as part of who I am right now, and just accept it, and not fear it.
Thanks, Joe