Hi there,

I was really looking forward to listening to this tape because I do "what if" thinking all the time. However, Lucinda suggests we take the "what if" all the way out to the end to help us feel better. Now, I can understand if it's a dinner party or something like that, but mine are different. For example:

What if I get on this plane and it crashes and I die?

What if I get mailed Anthrax in the mail, I smell it and I die?

What if I eat some food that has poison on it and I die?

What if I go into this building, it gets hit by a plane and I die?

What if I get some sort of strange hard to identify disease and I die?

Etc.?

I think you get the pattern? It doesn't help me feel any better to go "so what if I die?" So, maybe I'm missing something? The upward possibility part she talks about I really like. What if I got on a plane and really enjoyed the flight? That part would make me feel good, but the other part... not so good.

I'd appreciate any insight.

Thanks in advance!

Hi Texas-Mom!

Sounds to me like you are being affected by "9-11." As most of us are! This lesson would be difficult w/ the timing and especially if you are afraid to fly.

OR do you have scary and obsessive thoughts re: dying?

Just do your best and keep moving along. You will learn to get past those thoughts in particular in the later lesson on scary thoughts.

For the time being what helps me is saying to myself "thoughts, only thoughts."

Good luck!
Diane

quote:

Originally posted by Texas_Mom:
Hi there,

I was really looking forward to listening to this tape because I do "what if" thinking all the time. However, Lucinda suggests we take the "what if" all the way out to the end to help us feel better. Now, I can understand if it's a dinner party or something like that, but mine are different. For example:

What if I get on this plane and it crashes and I die?

What if I get mailed Anthrax in the mail, I smell it and I die?

What if I eat some food that has poison on it and I die?

What if I go into this building, it gets hit by a plane and I die?

What if I get some sort of strange hard to identify disease and I die?

Etc.?

I think you get the pattern? It doesn't help me feel any better to go "so what if I die?" So, maybe I'm missing something? The upward possibility part she talks about I really like. What if I got on a plane and really enjoyed the flight? That part would make me feel good, but the other part... not so good.

I'd appreciate any insight.

Thanks in advance!

Hey Texas_Mom! Last night I was reading "The Anxiety & Phobia Workbook" by Edmund J. Bourne, Ph.D. ISBN 1-57224-003-2. In it there is a chapter entitled "Self-Talk" that lists some specific steps each of us could follow when we recognize that we're experiencing three basic thought distortions.

Quoting from the book:
"1. Overestimating a Negative Outcome: Overestimating the odds of something bad happening. Most of the time your worries consist of 'what-if' statements which overestimate a particular negative outcome.

2. Catastrophizing: Thinking that if a negative outcome did occur, it would be catastrophic, overwhelming, and unmanageable. Catastrophic thoughts contain such statements as 'I couldn't handle it,' 'I'd be overwhelmed'....

3. Underestimating Your ability to Cope: Not recognizing or acknowledging your ability to cope if a negative outcome did, in fact, occur. This underestimation of your ability to cope is usually implicit in your catastrophic thoughts."

In the what-ifs you mentioned, you are obviously focused on your fear of death. But let's examine your questions, in a REALISTIC way. Every what-if you listed exhibits "Overestimation" and "Catastrophication" thought patterns.

Regarding airplanes; How likely is it that any given plane is going to crash? Almost everyone knows that it is statistically much safer to fly than it is to drive a car or walk across a busy street.

Regarding Anthrax; Is it realistic to think that you'll receive an Anthrax-tainted mail package? Have there been any such cases in Texas? In fact, I know of only 5 cases out of 280 million US citizens. Also, Anthrax is VERY treatable with antibiotics.

How likely is it that someone will poison your food? Do you have personal enemies? Do you keep a box of rat poison right next to your sugar bowl?

Realistically, how likely is it that another plane will hit another building, and that you will be in that exact building? I'm sure you're aware of all of the security precautions that are being taken in the airline industry.

"What if I get a strange, hard to identify disease?" How likely is this to happen? Do you live next to a toxic waste dump?

I can empathize with your statement, "It doesn't help me feel any better to go "so what if I die?"" I know that I certainly do not want to die. But if I were to die, I know that it would be caused by something completely out of my control. And not being in control is something that frightens almost all of us. I hope this helps! Be well!



[This message has been edited by CharlestonSC32M (edited 10-14-2001).]

Texas Mom,

I had the same problem with this tape too. My "what ifs" mirror yours and I also don't find comfort in the outcome! I actually did this tape prior to 9-11 and had the same difficulty. Charleston has a good point but still not completely comforting. I guess the real question is, "How do we give up control?" Maybe the MWC has some ideas for us on this lesson?

Glad to know I am not alone!

Take good care,

Wendy

DL, My scary and obsessive thoughts are about dying. I just used examples that popped into my head quickly. I'm sure that's why I used Anthrax and the planes -- it's on the news all the time. Hopefully, tape 10 will help me more. I thought this tape was supposed to take care of this problem. Maybe I had my expectations set incorrectly. What a concept?

Charleston, Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate it. I know what you mean about the probability of such. I just wish there was no probability of it so that I could flush it out of my mind. Like I said above, hopefully, tape 10 will help me more.

Wendy, I know what you mean. Sometimes I hear the tapes say things like deal don't dwell and little mantras like that. They're in the workbook, too. It seems like an important concept, but it's just skimmed over. I feel like I would get more out of a group setting like they have on the tapes, but it's not available in my area. I feel like I'm getting the tip of the iceburg sometimes and that the real meat of it comes with immersing yourself into these concepts. Does that make sense?

Best to all.

Makes complete sense - tape 10 didn't prove any better for me. I hope this doesn't disappoint you too much. But I did the same thing with tape 8 and 10. I think maybe we are missing something. Perhaps it is the "meat" concepts that are not getting the attention they should. Hopefully the MWC will be able to help us with this...

. However, Lucinda suggests we take the "what if" all the way out to the end to help us feel better

What if I get on this plane and it crashes and I die?

Actually, the above statement looks as though you've taken it all the way out to the "end". Death. What is afer that? The unknown. And you know how we like the UNKNOWN! Think about how you deal with it now. Do you prefer to stay in situations were you know the outcome? I didn't say LIKE the outcome. Because many times, like with anxiety, the pattern is familiar. We know what to expect. Knowing the outcome is comforting. Liking the outcome is optional. Comfort first. Death is so scary because it is something we must eventually face, but do not feel prepared for. So how do you prepare for it?
How can we predict the outcome? There are those who love the thrill of the unknown. Hook up with someone like that and ask them what they love about it. People with anxiety are notorious for chosing mates who live life to the fullest. Perhaps you have a good resource person at your fingertips now. Become a student of living life and you will lose your fear of dying. Every one of us has a built in instinct to "survive". Anxiety is the product of "super-survival". In fact, avoid death at all cost. I don't know how to control the afterlife, so I will attempt to avoid it. It doesn't mean you are weak, but simply someone who "avoids". Avoids planes, opening mail, going into certain buildings, diseases, and dinner parties. The common theme here is avoidance. What is the matter with that? Nothing if you love what you're doing. But your anxiety is begging you to find out who you really are. I don't want to know!!! Because you've been lead to believe things about yourself that simply are not true. We all have faith, trust, and courage. There was no magic wand or potion given to Lucinda to accomplish what she has accomplished. She was not given more of these qualities than you. She has chosen to strengthen hers.
She invites you to take your "what if" thought all the way to the end- as she has done- to begin a journey of self discovery. That you might know for yourself the strength you possess. But this knowledge requires action. Peace lies in the places you fear. Because fear is in your mind. When you get really, really good at comforting yourself in any and all situations, then when you feel the fear, anxiety, and panic, you can summon up the peace that you so desperately desire -- even to the moment of our death. GASP! There is that word again! Now how do I comfort myself? I FORGOT!!! Now what?????? I am only saying the word "death" and I feel terrible. You are running. When you take the "what if" all the way out to the end - in your mind you are running FAST in the other direction. That is why you do not feel better. So how can I feel better? There are 15 tapes to help you achieve this. But sometimes the tapes are confusing. So why not "avoid" the work.... because it's worth the work and the payoff! There is no shame in being an avoider. If that is honestly who you are right now, accept it. But continue to work with the tapes and workbook. Acceptance is different from "settling". Acceptance leaves room for growth. Acceptance doesn't look at the statistics of plane crashes, our odds of contracting disease, or eating poision food. Acceptance is in the business of TRUST. Trust that leads to peace. Trust that loves unconditionally and to the fullest. Trust that asks you to pick up the tapes and workbook again and give it another go - despite all prior failed attempts.
Pretty words? No. A new way of life.

Tammy

Andrew, much appreciated. Yeah, I know about the possible and probable thingy. My hubby is an engineer and he's always saying to me what are the odds? I've also been working hard to bolster my faith in God and I think knowing that he's sovereign in all areas is becoming more comforting to me.

Tammy, Thanks. I read this last night and I wasn't getting it, so I thought I'd read it again this morning. I'm trying to understand, but I don't think I fully get what you're trying to say?

One point though, I do not avoid. Something makes me anxious and uncomfortable, but I've always pushed myself to just go through it. I may not always like it, but I do the things anyway.

Thanks.

Thanks for your honesty, Texmom. Got a little deep in thought and kept typing. Sorry.

You say that you do not avoid and that you push yourself to do the thing you don't really want to do. I can relate to that. I did it for l5 years wondering why I wasn't getting "used" to it or improving any. After the program, I realized the thing I was unable to do was to NOT do the thing I didn't want to do. Confusing. I know. It all stemmed from my inner dialog. I was punishing myself with guilt if I DID NOT push myself so hard. I accomplished many things because if I didn't - there was a price to pay. I also had a huge fear of death. It consumed me. My "what if" mantra was so long it took me all day.
I never found the answers to my questions of "what if I get a disease and die?" but I formulated a replacement: "what will I do while I live?"
I understand your confusion. Please post again. We can discuss it further... Tammy

Andrew and Tammy,

Your responses are SO helpful to me. I have been fighting with this for so long and I feel like through your this thread - it is becoming clearer. But how do I keep this dialogue going. Possible? Probable? I wrote this down. One of my great fears like Texas Mom, is dying suddenly and dying young. I read (in the doctors office!) yesterday that Sharon Stone had an aneurysm or blood clot in her brain (one of my huge fears) and it scared the be-g-bers out of me! I almost went into full panic mode because I had been having terrible head pains yesterday and then read the story! Possible? Probable? Well, I don't know - she is very healthy and fit - it would seem not probable that she would have something like this happen to her. With the big things - planes, it works but with everyday stuff...? Yes Tammy, I rarely speak the word death, or cancer, etc. Avoiding - definitely. "Your anxiety is begging you to find out who you really are" - Tammy your reply was poignant and truely insighful. I will print this one out to study.

Texas Mom - sorry for honing in on your post but I know we are coming from the same place. I appreciate you all and the little bit of light that I am starting to see - back to the books (and tapes!).

Bug hugs to you all,

Wendy

Thanks Andrew. You have good insight. I am constantly reminding myself that "that is not ME". Takes a while to sink in, but the persistence pays off. Seems the things I have prepared myself for - like an aneurysm -never happen. It has always been the things I've never expected that have caught me off guard. So I have given up preparing. I finally got frustrated enough to give it up. (Thanks, God, for the frustration!)
And you are so right that no matter what -our higher power will love and take care of us and give us peace in the midst of the storm (or aneurysm!)
God Bless you all. Keep asking questions and looking for answers! Tammy

Texmom
Perhaps I am beating a dead horse, but I re-read my reply and I have something to add. I believe I understand why you are confused about the avoidance issue. You go in buildings, on planes, risk leaving your home, but cannot understand why facing the thing you fear does not make you feel any better. Because you carry with you the thing you fear. FEAR.
There is such thing as fear of fear. I know. I have experienced it. Logically I was not afraid of flying - I knew the stats (flying is safer than driving, yada yada yada) Ok, so I went. I flew, I gave speeches, I visited people with cancer (yikes) and I lived thru it. But after l5 years of doing these things I couldn't figure out why I wasn't getting any more comfortable. Shouldn't I be gaining confidence? Doesn't practice make perfect? Practice does make perfect. Problem was - WHAT I was practicing. If you want peace - practice peace. If you want to give a speech - practice speaking. But don't expect to have peace from giving a good speech. Expect to give a good speech because you are peaceful. Life is asking you to trust it, despite the chaos you see happening around you. Whenever you get on a plane, absorb yourself in conversation, look out the window, or close your eyes and enjoy the flight - you are practicing peace. When you look at all the beauty in your life and let go and say thanks for the gift of my life, my family, and the things I love and am able to do-and if they were all gone in the next moment I will chose to say "thank you" for having had them at all and for as long as I had them - then you are practicing peace. I was hanging on to my life so tight I couldn't breathe (literally!) My thoughts were choking me - even tho to others it looked as tho I was confident. I didn't feel confident-because I didn't feel peaceful.
I will stop before I confuse you any more, but give it some thought. I'd like to hear your response. Tammy


[This message has been edited by Bakedpears (edited 10-18-2001).]

Wendy, Hey, I'm happy this thread is helping you, too. I want to help others and if my bringing this up is helping you too -- all the much better.

Tammy, that makes sense -- not being peaceful because I'm not practicing peace. I hadn't thought about it that way. When I go into a building on a high floor, I always think ok, just get through this. It's not your favorite thing to do, but you don't have to look out the window, for example. I haven't even broached the subject of trying to enjoy it!!!

What I think I'm hearing everyone say (correct me if I'm wrong, please) is that these things are possible in life. The probability is low. So, instead choose to focus on different things. That's what's going to "cure" me of this. Is this right? This lesson is important and I want to get it down.

I was in the hospital 10 weeks ago having my baby boy when I started thinking, "what if" my prozac doesn't fend off the "what if" thoughts. Silly, I know. That's what started all of this the last time I started having panic attacks. I don't have anything particularly bothering me right now about what if, but I'm concerned that it'll return if I don't get this lesson down. I'm sure that's why I gave the 9-11 examples I gave. It's just so prevalent in the news, but they aren't truly things I'm freaking out about.

I understand how to deal with what if I hurt myself or someone else, what if I make a fool of myself, what if I get sick, etc. But, it seems to keep returning to the death issues. When I get to those, I don't know how to deal with them in another way that's more successful. I can't die to see how it goes so I won't be afraid and know I can handle it. Ya know?

Maybe it's just a simple answer and I'm looking for something deeper? Maybe the obsession tape will shed more light on it?

Andrew, I appreciate your insights as well. Thank you for contributing and giving me things to think about. I'm a stubborn willful child of God, I know this. I'm trying sooo hard to change that. For lots of reasons, I don't count on too many people. I think I will keep getting opportunities to learn the lesson of trust until I learn it.

TIA.

Click on here: How Oprah and Dr. Phil Cope With September 11th and Terror

Dolphin,

Appreciate the post. I saw it on another post in one of the forums and clicked on it. I was hoping it'd give me some different strategies to dealing with my problem, too, but I didn't find that it did. But, looking at the reality of the probability of being involved in such a situation as the terrorists are creating is helpful.

Thanks.