Hi everyone,

Was interested about people opinions on why do bad happen to good people. For example, why is a baby born addicted to crack? Why do some young kids get cancer? Why are there stillbirths?

Dont they have a soul? And if they do, what lesson is there to learn from this? Did they do anything to deserve this? Why would God allow this happen? If we are supposed to live a moral life, than what did these people do to deserve this. Are we not born innocent?

I would love to hear everyone's reasoning. Especially if it is unique.

I, myself, have come to realize that "bad" things happen to everyone. And I firmly believe that good can come from every bad thing. Like a still born for instance. There may have been reasons that caused the still birth. I know that a child that has died has gone to heaven, and those left with the pain will come to be able to help and understand others that go through such pain. And I believe being able to understand and help others to be a blessings for both parties. This is what enables and helps us to relate and care for others. Without this then where would the world be. Have you noticed that when bad things happen that this is when people become closer?
One person that I admire so greatly and is a great testimony of good coming from bad things is a woman name Joni (pronounced Johnny) Earekson Tada. You might have heard of her. She has a world wide ministry helping the handicapped and spreading the Word of God. She had a diving accident and became paralyzed from the neck down. Yet she has become one of the most blessed and strongest persons I know. She draws beautiful pictures while holding a pencil in her mouth. She helps handicapped people worldwide and speaks worldwide, while also writing wonderful books and creating books on tapes along with numerous other things.
I truly believe that good can come from the bad things that happen in life. And I believe that bad things just happen. Not because we've done something to deserve it, but just because it's part of life. And I believe many find comfort knowing that there is a life ahead where there will be no more suffering or pain. As Joni does. And she has written a wonderful book titled Heaven. If you're interested in her website it's www.joniandfriends.org
Any ways though I'd share my beliefs on this.

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Hope is the thing with feathers
That perches in the soul
And sings the tune without the words
And never stops at all. -Emily Dickinson


[This message has been edited by grateful (edited 08-09-2002).]

Grateful thanks for the response. It was very helpful. I gained much inspiration from the story of joni. You mention that �there is a life ahead where there will be no more suffering or pain�, I guess you are referring to heaven. I have this question for you, why even bother with this life, why do we not start off in heaven? Why do we live this life?


Andrew, I have a very, very basic understanding of the course in miracle. I have read the book, Love is letting go of fear. It was excellent. I have borrowed the combined volumes of a course of miracles from my library. It resembles the bible in shape and print, Im trying to read thru it but it is far from simple reading. You mention that our ego creates the world to attack god. Why would we want to do this? What is our relationship with god? Is this some sort of test? Is there an �afterlife�. I know this are not simple questions, and providing simplified answers will leave a lot unsaid, but I would appreciate just some sort of direction of where the course in miracles stands on this.

Thanks for your replies!


[This message has been edited by mcre (edited 08-10-2002).]

Mcre,
Good question, but a very hard one to answer. Not that there isn't an answer, but I believe only God can truly answer that question.
The first thing that came to mind though, was that I correlate that question with the question, Why do we have children? What is it within us that causes us to yearn to have children. We know that it's not easy, that we will experience great heartache. We know that they will experience joy as well as sadness. But to experience the joy of new life in our lives just seems to be something worth all the effort. To watch, and guide and love OUR children is one of the most rewarding experiences I know of. And to have that love returned is worth all the effort.
Perhaps the Lord felt somewhat the same way? I know that God did create the heavens and all the angels. And He gave them free will just as He gave man free will, for He did not want puppets who would love and serve him at will. And He created man and woman and the earth and all that walked and grew on the earth. And He found these things to be "GOOD".
Any ways, I'm glad that the Lord decided to create this world, and man and woman. I have found that though the struggles have been great, so have the joys been great.
Hope this helps in some way in answering your question.
Take good care.

Genesis 1:27
"So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Genesis 1:31
"God saw all that He had made, and it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning - the sixth day."


[This message has been edited by grateful (edited 08-11-2002).]

Hi MCRE,
First, I want to commend you for caring for young ones as you do. You seem to have so much love in your heart to give. I also sence that where all that love comes from is also pain. Perhaps you personally have suffered or are suffering over the illness of a loved child or that of a friends. Either way, you are asking some very good and important questions that deserve a truthful answer.

Your open mindedness to listen to what different ones have to say is good. And since you ask questions regarding why God allows and does certain things you will no doubt appreciate his answering those questions himself. One main way that he does this is thru his written Inspired Word, the Holy Bible. So, all I will attempt to do is point out some of the verses that will provide his answer for you.

You are open for an unique answer. Well, what I am about to share with you may very well be unique to you and different than what you might be familiar with. But interestingly enough, it is not unique! Its source is as old as can be because it comes direct from the inspired Bible writers. It's just that it is often not shared or taught by some religions. Actually, some may even teach something different.

So, I will share as the others here kindly replied. And then you can include this information with what you already have learned. Again, your open mindedness is a commendable quality as is your love for children.

The reason for illness and death is NOT because God brings it about on any specific person because they deserve it. Sometimes, to comfort the parents of a child that passed on, a minister will say God needed another angel in heaven. However, a loving God would not bring about an illness and death to serve his needs or to reward one.

The Bible book of Ecclesiastes sheds light on this when answering your questions. You may find it advantageous to follow along in your own copy.
". . . time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all. For man also does not know his time.. ." -- Eccl. 9:11, 12.
Note, it is an "unforseen occurrence" thus not implying God brings it on because someone deserves it. It simply happens.

"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work not devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in sheol [Hebrew for mankind's common grave] the place to which you are going." --Eccl. 9:5, 10.

Note: You wrote, "If we are supposed to have a 'mortal life'. . ." You yourself think in terms of our lives being mortal which means, can die. You are correct.
However, you also wrote, "Don't they have a soul?" If one has(have) a soul than they would not be mortal, they would be immortal. However the scripture you just read shows that they are "not conscious" meaning that one is not immortal because they do not have thoughts that live on after they have died.

Now, lets look at the book of creation, Genesis. There we learn that God created man in his image (Gen. 1:27, 28) and that it was "very good" --Gen 1:31. God does not cause birth defects or illness. In other words, man was created perfect without sin.

Was man created a soul or given a soul? There is a big difference. You'll find the answer in Genensis 2:7 which states: "And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the grownd and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul."
"and man became a living soul" --King James
"and man became a living being." --New International
"And man became a living person." --Living Bible
"and man became a living being." --Revised Standard

Note from the above different translations that after God breathed into man the breath of life he "became a living soul, being, or person. He was NOT given a soul, something that was separate. Rather, he became a mortal soul.

Being perfect the first couple could of lived forever if they would not sin. That is why God commanded not to eat of the "tree of the knowledge of good and bad" because they would "positively die." --Gen. 2:17
There was plenty of food to eat of so they would not have lacked. However, they willfully chose to disobey God. Once they did so they ceased to be perfect because they sinned. Sin means to miss the mark of perfection.

They ate of the forbidden fruit before they had children. After they were ushured out of the Garden of Eden they bore children that were not perfect.

We have inherited sin from Adam.
The reason therefore that we all die, whether adults or children, is explained at Romans 5:12 which states: "That is why, just as through one man [Adam] sin entered the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sined."

This inheritance of sin is with us from the time of our conception in the womb. It is for this very reason that King David wrote" "In sin my mother conceived me." (Ps. 51:5)

In view of the foregoing, we all are born in sin and die. Further indicating that the mortal soul is not separate and distinct from the body and that it is the person themselves is Ezekiel 18:4. "Look! All souls--to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son--to me they belong. The soul that is sinning--it itself will die."

Life is a gift from God. "Every good gift and every perfect present is from above for it comes down from the Father of the [celestial] lights, and with him there is not a variation of the turning of the shaddow." --James 1:17. Logically then, God would not bring about illness and death because a child deserved it. This ought to be comforting to know. It is to me. However, I understand and have empathy for your feelings.

If a child was a crack baby it is the
parent(s) that harmed their unborn offspring because of their drug abuse.

We can be comforted having the knowledge that God lovingly extends to children the benefits of Christ's ransome sacrifice. Therefore, out of consideration for parents who faithfully serve God, he views their young children as holy. (1 Cor. 7:14) This can motivate God-fearing parents to be careful about their own standing with God, out of loving concern for their offspring. To those young enough to exercise faith and demostrate obedience to God's commandments, he extends the privlege of having an approved standing as his servants. (Ps. 119:9; 148;12, 13; Acts 16:1-3).

Noteworthy is that Jesus, who was a perfect reflection of his father, showed a very special interest in the welfare of young ones, even raising a child from the dead. Thus we can be assured that he will continue to do that as Messianic King. --Matt. 19:13-15; Like 8:41, 42, 49-56.

We can look forward to a time when there will be no more pain or death. -- Rev. 21:3, 4. And if a loved one has already passed away then they can be brought back to life in the resurrection. (John 5:28, 29) Yes, to life on this very earth. (Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:10, 11)

The Bible teaches that some will go to heaven but for a specific purpose of ruling over this earth when it is restored to a paradise. (Rev. 20:6) However, the majority of faithful mankind and the resurrected will be for life on this paradise restored earth. At that time there will be no more deafness, blindness, speechlessness, lameness --Isaiah 35:3-10
"Say to those who are anxious at heart; 'Be strong, Do not be afraid.'"
See also the encouraging words at Isaiah 65:17, 20-25.
Evidently you are a person who believes in God. Do you believe that God is love? Do you believe that he is wise and that he is the almighty? Then he must have some good reasons for permitting suffering and the Bible gives us those reasons. I would like to further this discussion here or thru
e-mail if you would like additional scriptures or questions answered.

I hope for you peace of mind in this regard and am here for you in any way I can be of encouragment.

Sincerely,
Victoria

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Victoria



[This message has been edited by Victoria (edited 08-13-2002).]

Hi Andrew,

Thank you for your interesting observation.
What I wrote about the paradise is the scriptural view and the basis of Christ's teachings as a result of his Kingdom Rule. This is what Christians pray for in the Our Father Prayer. Regardess of what religion a person is, if they read their Bible they will find all the scriptures there concerning this topic. It's because it has a scriptural basis that Jehovah's Witnesses believe it. They believe that "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equiped for every good work." -- 1 Timothy 3:16, 17.

The Scriptures absolutely indicate that some righteously disposed individuels will go to heaven. When Christ instituted the Lords Evening Meal [Last Supper] those that partook did so because they had a heavenly calling. And that was the case with the first century Christians. It is regarding those that go to heaven that 1 Corinthians Chapter 15 was writen.

When they rule with Christ for a thousand years it will be as kings and priests. --Revelation 20:6.
They will judge as 1 Cor. 6:2 says; "Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?" Also, Rev. 5:10: "You made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over ["on", RS, KJ, DY; "over" AT, Da, Kx, CC] the earth." One can find the same Greek word and grammatical structure at Rev. 11:6. (The RS, KJ, Dy, etc. translations all render it "over.")
These are selected. --2 Thess. 2:13, 14.

It would be logical that if there are kings there would have to be subjects. And if there are priests there would have to be some that would benefit by them. So, if all good people go to heaven then whom are the good kings and priests going to rule over?

Also, why did Jesus, in the Model Prayer [the Lord's Prayer} say, ""Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven?" KJ We will agree that not all persons on earth today are doing God's will. It is certainly not done on earth as "it is in heaven."

Jesus does mention a specific number of 144,000 (Rev. 7:4; 14:1-4) and also in 7:9 a "great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues." Is the number of 144,000 merely symbolic? After mentioning the number of 144,000 in Revelation 7:9 we find our answer. Vs. 9 refers to "a great crowd, which no man was able to number." If that number of 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the "great crowd." To view the number as literal agrees with Jesus' statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: "There are many invited, but few chosen."

So, the great crowd do not go to heaven. The description in Rev. 7:9, 10 of them as "standing before the throne and before the Lamb" indicates, not necessarily a location, but an approved condition. You may compare Rev. 6:17; Luke 21:36. The expression "before the throne" from the Greek, e-no'pi-on tou thro'nou literally, "in sight of the throne does not require that they be in heaven. It can simply mean "in sight" of God, who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men. _Ps. 11:4; compare Matt. 25:31-33; Luke 1:74, 75; Acts 10:33

Those that go to heaven are a small number in comparison to those that live on the earth. Luke 12:32 states: "Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom." Whereas those that are of the "great crowd" are called the "other sheep." (John 10:16)

Those that have the hope of going to heaven are "led by God's spirit, these are God's sons." These would become "joint heirs with Christ." (Romans 8:14, 16, 17) At the time Romans was written it was true that all who were led by God's spirit were God's sons whose hope was that they would be glorified with Christ. But this was not always true.

Although Luke 1:15 says that John the Baptizer would be filled with holy spirit, Matthew 11:11 make it clear that he will not share in the heavenly glory of the heavenly Kingdom. That would indicate that after gathering of the heirs of the heavenly Kingdom, there would be others who would serve God as followers of his Son and yet not share in the heavenly glory.

Simply put, not all good people go to heaven. The scriptures indicate that David was "a man agreeable to God's heart and yet he did not ascend to the heavens. (Acts 2:34) The same for John the Baptizer for Matt. 11:11 reads: "Truly I say to you people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater that he is."

Also all Bibles clearly contain the verses of Ps. 37: 9, 11, 29 which say; "Evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth...The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their equisite delight in the abundance of peace. The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it."

If Adam hadn't sinned then he wouldn't have gone to heaven. God purposed for him to be caretaker of the earth and of the animal life there. No where in Genesis does it say he could of gone to heaven. (Gen. 1:26)

Death was their punichment for disobedience, not the doorway to a better life in heaven. Obedience would have been rewarded by continued life in the extended Paradise that God had given to man. (Gen. 2:16, 17; Isaiah 45:18)

Does one have to go to heaven to have a truly happy future?
Not according to Ps. 37:11; Rev. 21:3,4; or Mic. 4:3, 4. These in addition to the other scriptures I shared in this thread (post).

Andrew, I know that I responded with a lengthy reply because I wanted you to see that their is a solid scriptural basis for this. It is not a man made doctrine (teaching).
_____________________________________________

Andrew, you also brought up "hell." Keeping in mind that the doctrine of "hell" is that
all bad people go there and burn for their sins.

The word "hell" is found in many Bible translations. In other translations the exact verses read "the grave." The Hebrew she'ohl' and its Greek equivalent hai'des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind.

If you will notice my reply to this thread I explained from the scriptures that the dead do not experience pain. (Eccl, 9:5, 10; Ps. 146:4) And I shared additional scriptures indicating that the soul does not survive the death of the body. (Ez. 18:4) So, the scriptures then do not indicate that a bad person would feel the pains of a literal burning hell.

Considering that some Bible translations use the word "hell" one could find it interesting that Acts 2:25-27 says Jesus went there. "David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ],. . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell." The fact that God did not "leave Jesus in "hell" (grave) implies that Jesus was there at least for a time.

I can furnish some scriptures that some might think are indicative of a literal burning hell fire and their actual meaning. And I can explain why there may be confusion as to what the Bible says about hell. I can even discuss purgatory if you wish at another time. But for lack of time, I will bring this discussion on my part to a close for now.

However, as for Spirituality for Anxiety, I have found from discussions with some that they are anxious when they think that one might burn in hell for their sins. Whereas the scriptures can "set [us] free" from misunderstandings as they provide a loving hope for all.

You are a thinker which I truly appreciate and I understand where you are coming from as you explained. Any additional questions on this are invited.

Sincerely,
Victoria

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Victoria

[This message has been edited by Victoria (edited 08-13-2002).]

Victoria,
I have to agree with Andrew here. Most of what you have written here is something very alien to me, and I have read and studied the New Testament and have been a Christian for many years now.
I hope not to offend you in any way, but just wanted to mention that these teachings are not the teachings of most Christian religions or theologies. I believe that only the Jehovah Witness religion has these beliefs. I didn't know if you were aware of this or not.
Any ways, just thought I might mention this.

Hi Grateful and Also Andrew,

Thank you for writing. Yes, I am absolutely aware of everything that you wrote and you are correct. Nevertheless, you may have noticed that everything I wrote I substantuated with scriptures that are in the Bible used by most Christians regardless of what religion they are.

I think it is great that you've read the New Testament. I commend you for it. I have also more than once as I'm always catching something I missed previously, which I find exciting. Since you have an appreciation for the scriptures, if time allows, you may want to look up the scriptures I cited, especially from the New Testament since you have read it previously. Its there, perhaps you didn't catch it at the time. Makes one wonder why some churches don't teach their flocks some of the things I touched on since they are based on the cited scriptures?

There is no way Jehovah's Witnesses could of made up the scriptural referances since they can be found in all complete Bible translations. And the reason for me citing lots of scriptures is so there would be no misuderstanding of my taking one out of context and giving it my own interpretation.
The combination and use of several scriptures per subject allows for the scriptures to logically speak for themselves.

Perhaps you didn't know that Jehovah's Witnesses consist of millions that were previously of different religious backgrownds. Also, they consist of people of most races in over 235 lands and islands.

Actually, I never on my own made a point on the forum to discuss Jehovah's Witnesses. However, I was asked regarding their beliefs and therefore was able to answer questions regarding such. Perhaps I just want anyone who is interested in reading my replies to see the reliable source (Bible) from which I'm quoting and not mistakenly thinking it to be the man made doctrine of a paticular religon. Unfortunately, there are times when some have become biased regarding the Witnesses based on heresay and misunderstandings which is why I don't bring them up unless asked.

Again, thanks Grateful for taking the time to write me here and on the other threads I have posted. I always like hearing from you.

Wishing You Well.
Sincerely,
Victoria

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Victoria

[This message has been edited by Victoria (edited 08-14-2002).]

Note: Andrew.
Thank you for one of your previous replies. What I answered Grateful (with an exception or two) applies as my reply to you as well. Hope its helpful.
V.
_____________________________________________
Good Morning Andrew,
You're certainly up bright and early. You asked an interesting question. And you are very considerate in the way you ask. I know you now well enough that you are asking not for the purpose of argumentive debate but because for interest in knowing. Thus I appreciate the opportunity to reply. Thank You.

There are a couple of things I just want to bring your mind back to for a minute that may tie in the answers to your question. If you look back again at the topic in the "Spirituality for Anxiety" folder (Questions Answered that I posted) I went into considerable depth on the divine name, Jehovah the English translation from the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, which means "He Causes to Become." These four Hebrew letters are represented in many languages by the letters JHVH or YHWH. I bring this to your attention again to bring out the point that the name is universally known and used by individuals of differet religious persuasions. It is used in different translations as it was also used by Christ.

Also, if you look back in the archives under Victoria you will find a couple of my extensive researched replies to another's post (I think AQ) about the original writings & translations.

Also, keep in mind what we recently discussed regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls where the name was found in the book of Isaiah.

Too, in just this post alone, as I have in everything of a religous nature, I have included dozens of scriptures that can be verified by anyone in their own chosen translation. And sometimes quoted other translations: AS-American Standard Version, CC-The New testament-Confraternity of Christian Doctrine Revision, Dy-Catholic Challoner-Douay Version, JB-The Jeerusalem Bible, KJ-King James Version, etc. I, as do most Jehovah's Witnesses have a variety of Bible translations that we use because we are Bible students/educators. My book cases are full of different translations, and addtional secular research materials.

The "New World Translation" of the Holy Scriptures was made directly from Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek into modern-day English by a committee of dedicated translators who, with revervential fear and love of the Divine Author of the Scriptures. They felt a special responsibility toward God to transmit his thoughts and declarations as accurately as possible. Additonally, they felt a responsiblity toward searching readers who depend on a translation of the inpired Word for their salavation. It is a translation. And it was originally released in sections, from 1950 to 1960. Editions in other languages have been based on the English translation.

ON WHAT IS THE "NEW WORLD TRANSLATION" BASED?
As a basis for translating the Hebrew Scriptures, the text of Rudolf Kittel's Biblia Hebraica, editions of 1951-1955, was used. Thus, the 1984 revision of the New World Translation benefited from updating in harmony with the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia of 1977. Additionally, the Dead Sea Scrolls and numerous earlier translations into other languages were consulted. For the Christian Greek Scriptures, the master Greek text of 1881 as was prepared by Westcott and Hort was used primarily. Also, several other master texts were consulted as well as numerous early versions in other languages.

WHO WHERE THE TRANSLATORS?
The New World Bible Translation Committee requested that its members remain anonymous when presenting as a gift the publishing rights to their translation. Therefore, The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania has honored their request. Those translators were not seeking prominence for themselves but only to honor the Divine Author of the Holy Scriptures.

This is not uncommon. Over the years other translation committees have upheld a similar view. As an example, the jacket of the Reference Edition (1971) of the New American Standard Bible states: "We have not used any scholar's name for reference or recommendations because it is our belief God's Word should stand on its merits."

Andrew, you amy be wondersing, IS IT REALLY A SCHOLARLY TRANSLATION?
Since the translators have chosen to reamin anonymous this can't be answer by their educational backgrownd. Therefore, the translation must be appraised on its own merits.

It is, for one thing, an accurate, largely literal translation from the original languages. It is not a loose paraphrase (where translators leave out details that they consider unimportant and add ideas they they believe will be helpful). Students are aided by a number of editions that provide extensive footnotes showing variant readings where expressions can legitimately be rendered in more than one way, also a listing of the specific ancient manuscripts on which certain renderings are based.

If you were to read a verse that you are not accustomed to, you may wonder which rendering is right? You would be invited to examine manuscript support cited in footnotes of the Reference edition of the New World Translation, read explanations given in the appendix, and compare the renering with a variety of other translations. Thus, you would see that generally other translators also saw the need to express the matter in a similar manner.

WHY THE USE OF THE NAME JEHOVAH IN THE CHRISTIAN GREEK SCRIPTURES?
Andrew, did you know that the New World Translation is not the only Bible that does that? The divine name also appears in translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures into Hebrew, in passages where quotations are made directly from the inspired Hebrew Scriptures. The Emphatic Diaglott (1864) contains the name Jehovah as much as 18 times. Versions of the Christian Greek Scriptures use also use a vernacular form of the divine name in at least 38 other languages.

Jesus Christ personally used the name of his Father freely. (Matt. 6:9; John 17:6, 26) The apostle Matthew, according to Jerome of the fourth century C.E., wrote his Gospel first in Hebrew, and that Gospel makes numerous quotations of passages from the Hebrew Scriptures that contain the divine name. Other writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures quoted from the Greek Septuagint. It was a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek which begun about 280 B.C.E.). Early copies contained the divine name in Hebrew characters, as shown by actual fragments that have been preserved.

States Professor George Howard of the Universily of Georgia: "Since the Tetragram [four Hebrew letters for the divine name] was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible which made up the Scriptures of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the N{ew] T[estamemt] writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the bibical text." --Journal of Bibical Literature, March 1977, p. 77.

Source: rs

I hope that I was of some help. Will continue later.

Victoria



[This message has been edited by Victoria (edited 08-14-2002).]

Hi Andrew,
This is regarding your question on the TORAH/PENTATEUCH (the same)

The Torah (Pentateuch) is the anglicized Greek word which means "five rolls" or "fivefold volume." Its the Law. It refers to the first five books of the Old Testament - The Hebrew Scriptures. They are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, numbers, and Deuteronomy.

The term "Torah" may also be used to refer to the Jewish Bible as a whole as well as to the oral law and the Talmud. (The "Talmud" is the written summary, with later commentaries and explanations, of the oral law, compiled by rabbis from the second century C.E. into the Middle Ages. The Talmud is usually divided into two main sections: The Mishnah and the Gemara).

Thus, anything that is written and called the Torah that goes beyond the five books of Moses are not included in the Inspired Holy Bible consisting of 66 books. They are the Jewish writings of the oral law compiled by rabbis from the second century C.E. Whereas, Moses wrote the original Torah starting 1513 B.C.E. with the completion of Deutronony in 1473 B.C.E.

THE actual TORAH
Its the most important segment of God's Word because it furnishs a solid foundation upon which the rest follows. From Genesis (creation)in the beginning to 1657 B.C.E.to Deuteronomy which examines portions of the Law convenant and ordinances.

There is no single text that says Moses wrote the entire Pentateuch but scattered throughout are explicit statements serving the same purpose. (Scriptures if requested.)

God educated his people (the Isrealites/Jews) by means of the priests, the nonpriestly Levites, and the prophets. When giving his final blessing upon the tribe of Levi, Moses stated: "Let them instruct Jacob in your juicaial decisions and Israel in your law." (Deuteronomy 33:8, 10). The word "law" is significantly Hebrew (toh-rah'). It is derived from a root that in its verbal form means "to show," "to teach," "to instruct." States the Encyclopaedia Judacia: "This meaning of the word [torah] is therefore 'teaching,' 'doctrine,' or 'instruction.'"

This set Isreal apart from the other nations and even from modern day nations. In Isreal the Law was God's means of telling his people how he wanted them to worship him and thereby live in accordance with his will. The Law was by far more than a cold-statue-book. It provide doctrine, teaching, and instuction as a way of life that they had to learn.

In the days of Christ's ministry each town had a synagogue that was built for the Jews. One feature of the ancient synagougues was a repository for Scripture rolls. In later synagogues, the ark became an architectural feature of the buildings walls. The reading of the Law was done from an elevated plaform with benches around for the audience. The synagogue served as a place for instruction, giving of praise as featured in the Psalms and prayers from the Scriptures.

It was because of the emphasis on reading of the Torah that the disciple James observed: "From ancient times Moses has had in city after city those who preach him, because he is read aloud in the synagogues on every sabbath." (Acts 15:21).

Anything that is written other that found in the Hebrew Scriptures as we have them available in numerous Bible Translations and versions must be approached with caution if it is aclaimed as inspired. It may simiply be relgious tradition.

Well, my friend. My eyes are tired and I have some things to tend to. If you need further info on this, just ask.


Victoria

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Victoria

[This message has been edited by Victoria (edited 08-14-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Victoria (edited 08-14-2002).]

Victoria,
Have been looking back in Revelations. I have a great study bible and this is the explanation it gives regarding those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. There were 12 tribes and from each tribe 12,000 were sealed. My study notes explains that the number 144,000 refers to 12x12x1000 which symbolizes completeness - and that all God's followers will be brought safely to him.
It also explains that Revelation is written in "apocalytic" form - a type of Jewish literature that uses symbolic imagery.
Thought I would just explain how many Christians view this part of scripture.
Perhaps if you'd like to e-mail about all this we could do that. I think it would be interesting. Would hate to think that others might view us as having a debate instead of a conversation. I'm sure you know what I mean. But whatever you feel most comfortable with is OK by me.
I also saw that movie Signs. I thought it was great, and scary! My son really enjoyed it also. Will have to get it on DVD when it comes out.


[This message has been edited by grateful (edited 08-15-2002).]

Me too Andrew, I understood your just read it first. I sometimes do that then take my time going over something later when I can think and absorb it. I do this when I am curious what someone wrote me on the forum when I only have a few minutes.

No, I haven't heard them scream. Where do you live? We just have a few dogs and lots of cats in our neighborhood. But if the cats are in heat you can just imagine their noises! Our cat is strickly indoors and only as quite meows.

Will chat later. God Night.
Victoria

At least we are not hearing gun shots like LA. LOL

Hey guys

just wanted to say that I enjoyed this thread very much, especially Andrew and Victoria.

Andrew - where do you live, indeed, with screaming peacocks?

Victoria,

I have a short Jehova's Witness story to share...

When I was about 19 or 20 was when my anxiety was really bad - I mean really bad! ANxiety attacks, full agoraphobia, horrific OCD thoughts - I could not imagine continuing living this way. Don't get me wrong, I didn't want to die - but certainly didn't want live either. I had a horrible moment that I can remember to this day - lying in my bed, sobbing hysterically, and litterally begging, loudly, for God to help me. I was hysterical, crying, yelling, angry at God, begging for his help, to send me sign that he was there, that I wasn't alone. etc... Well I finally settled down and ten minutes later there was a knock on my door and it was a Jehovas Witness. Now the odd thing was where we lived we never ever had anyone come to the house before so this certainly was an uncommon thing. I forget the scripture reading that day that she shared with me but I'll never forget the feeling that God used her as "an angel" on earth to carry his message. I felt like I was touched by a miracle that day and ended up developing a friendship with the woman who came for awhile - until we moved and lost touch. I don't think I ever told her this tale though - didn't think she'd understand the whole anxiety thing, ya know. Anyway, since then I've had warm fuzzies for Jehovas Witnesses.
I hope you enjoyed my little story.

Andrew - A course in Miracles sounds interesting. Have you ever read the Conversations With God series? Where can I find out more about the COURSE? I am sure you have a link

and hey, where have my Far Side commics been?

Good Morning Everyone,
I just had a couple of minutes this morning to check e-mails and my curiosity took me to this folder. Well, you know how it is. It got the best of me.

So, I will get back to reply to those that I have not replied to. I really appreciate what each of you wrote me this morning from peacocks; a wonderful faith building experience; and an interesting point of discussion on the 1444,000.

Please stay tuned until I'm able to reply to all of you.

In the mean time, promise to have a wonderful day with less anxiety than the previous and to be even be better tomorrow. Mat. 5:3 - Be happy.

Victoria

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Victoria

WOW, thanks everyone for their detailed replies. You have given me some new pathways to further explore. This is a question that i still have trouble coming to understanding. Im sure it will become cleared in time.

Thanks all,
jim