My Fiance and I often get into this discussion and I was curious as to what other people thought.
I am non-denominational, he is Catholic.
He oftens brings up that because I have not been baptised, I am not going to heaven.
I often refer to it as 'The Other Side' and he also has problems with that.
So it usually ends up that I am going to "hell" because though I am God-loving, I have not been baptised, nor have I chose that path as of yet.
I don't fret over what will happen when I pass, as I have no control of that.
So, because I choose not to follow a specific religion I am going to hell?
What of those who have been baptised, but have not followed their religion's beliefs?
Because they have been baptised they are safeguarded?
Heck, I dunno. I have my own thoughts and beliefs and I was curious as to what other people thought.
I'm open to hearing anything.

Michele

Covergirl,
Being raised Catholic I also believed that you have to be baptised to go to heaven. In fact I came to believe that if a baby even two days old was not baptized that they would go to purgatory.
I am now a nondenominational Christian and have read the New Testament through two times and am now reading it for the third time and have also studied different things pertaining to the bible.
I would like to share that there is no mention of purgatory at all anywhere in the bible. As for baptism I have come to find and believe that this is to be a public statement of one wanting to publically announce ones belief and desire to follow Christ Jesus. And that this is not something that decides whether one will go to heaven or not. I believe that only the person and the Lord can decide whether one will go to heaven or not. And believing that the Lord is the ultimate good. I have no concern that He will not do what is absolutely right and just. I have also come to believe that He will decide based on what we know, not what we do not know and what we have chosen to do with what we know.
I was baptised as a baby due to my parents being Catholic, but I see no significance in that at all. I was again baptised at the age of 32 due to feeling the great desire to publically announce my desire to follow Christ. To me this was a choice I made which was significant to myself. My husband and boys were also baptised as babies due to my still being Catholic when they were little and my husband being raised Catholic. They are all now non-denominationl Christians and neither of them have been baptised again. They also believe that this doesn't decide where they will spend eternity and they just haven't felt the desire to be baptised again. Perhaps one day they will. But for now they haven't felt that desire.
Any ways, the ministries I listen to also believe as I've come to believe. That baptism is a choice and a calling, but it does not decide whether one will go to heaven or not.
Perhaps when you come to feel comfortable in your own mind about this, then you can come to just accept your husbands beliefs as his. I've come to realize that we can never change ones beliefs with words. Words only help when one is asking for answers. For one to change it has to come from the desire within ones self.
I'd like to share this story that comes to mind. The story of Jesus on the cross. There were two men hanging on crosses next to Jesus. One of them was hurling insults at Jesus. And the other one stood up for Jesus telling the other that they two were being justly punished while Jesus was innocent and didn't deserve this punishment. Then he said to Jesus "Remember me when you come into your kingdom." And Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." This man had been convicted of a crime and this was the reason he was hanging on the cross next to Jesus. Had this man been baptised? Had he been a follower of Christ? I might speculate that he heard of Jesus and His miracles. For it had to have been the great talk of the town. He saw His kindness and His love and he somehow came to know that Jesus was the Christ and that Jesus was innocent of all that he was convicted of. Despite the way this man had lived his life somehow he came to know who Jesus was and when asked to be remembered was readily granted the promise of being in paradise before the day was done. (Brings tears to my eyes.Good tears. )
Again, I, myself, have no concern, worry, or fear of who will go to heaven or not, for I know the Lord IS compassion, love and true forgiveness. Of which I am truly grateful.
Hope this helps in sharing my view on this. Take good care.

quote:

Originally posted by grateful:
[qb]
Perhaps when you come to feel comfortable in your own mind about this, then you can come to just accept your husbands beliefs as his.[/qb]

Thanks for the input grateful. As far as my Fiance's beliefs, I accept them as that. They are his beliefs.
And I point this out to him to end the discussion when it gets a little heated.
As I say to him, "I do not try to stuff my beliefs down your throat or tell you what to do with yours, and I ask that you to do the same."

I was just curious as to others' beliefs/backgrounds/thoughts on this.

Michele

Covergirl,

I have family members that took a "miscarried" baby to church to have it baptised. Yes, the child had died but they did it anyways because they believed that child would be in hell if they didn't. This was a baby that didn't even finish it's 9 months in the womb!!

God is not like this at all!

I also agree with Grateful about only being held responsible for those things we know and understand.

I too am Non-Denominational, and I see Non-Denominational as having firm beliefs based on the bible alone and not in any religion.

It's very difficult to be in a marriage that does not agree in spiritual matters. My best advice to you would be to just keep accepting your husband for what he is and what he believes.
Although you feel he doesn't do that for you in return, try to understand that his religion has strict rules they follow and believe, perhaps he is fearful of what may happen if you don't follow (?). Since these are "truths" to him, you can understand why he is being the way he is being towards you.

Perhaps you both can read the bible together and explore the New Testament for answers. I assure you, they are there!!

I found Mark 16:16, Acts chapters 2,8, and 9 to be helpful. Don't look at what people or organized religions have to say, but what does the Bible say? What did the apostles say?
Reena

ps. you notice that all in the bible who were baptized were of an age to make that decision? A baby or child isnt in the position to weigh that matter and make a choice.

quoted by Victoria:

quote:

When Job suffered pain he wanted to die because he knew that it would be a place of inactivity.
Job 14:13; Ps. 6:5; Ec 9:10; Isa 38:18, 19

Victoria, it is my understanding and belief that Job wanted to die because of his deep depression after losing everything he owned including his family members.

There are alot of people who believe in heaven and hell that have experienced that deep depression and still wanted to die.

On a more personal note, I understand that you are speaking from your Jehovah's Witness beliefs and I respect that, but for me, the bible paints a more serious picture of hell than you mention here. My pastor would have alot to say about your beliefs that hell isn't a big deal and that we just turn to back into the dust of the earth.

The bible does speak of a place of torment and eternal punishment. It also speaks of the "fires of hell" and the "unquenchable" fire.

Daniel 12:2; Luke 16:20-24; Matthew 5:22; Matthew 18:9; Mark 9:43-47; Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:5; Matthew 23:33; Matthew 25:41-46
These are some of the references that I have listed.

I would like to point out that the original Greek text also used the word Gehenna ( place of suffering/torment) in some of these references I have given. It is most helpful to have a Greek and English Interlinear bible. Mine has the NIV, KJV and original Greek w/ direct translation from the old documents.

I don't belong to any type of religion at all, in fact I don't even know if I spelt religion correctly. Don't get me wrong I've nothing against any type of church. My thoughts are that if it makes you feel happiness, peace or what ever, then go for it. I consider myself more of a humanist.I believe in treating others the way the commandments say, but I don't believe in Christ.I'm more into the Big Bang theory..I think to many people have died, and conflicts have been started because of religion. But again if it gives you peace, then by all means enjoy
Sander

Thanks everyone for the replies. I really enjoy all of the input.

Hi Covergirl (Grateful and others),

This is a continuation of answering the good questions you posted. I'm in agreement with Grateful and others regarding baptism at an older age. In view of what the scriptures say, I am in ageement on this matter. Jesus instructed Christians as recorded at Matthew 28:19, 10: Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." Since he said, "teaching them" it would indicate that the disciple, which means student or pupil, would be old enough to be taught and able to understand so as to willingly accept those things taught. Thus they have the option of baptism which is an outward sign to others that one has inwardly made a prayerful dedication to God.

Grateful provided an excellant example of the evil doer who was hanging beside Christ on the torture stake.

Also, we have the example to Jesus himself. He was not an infant at the time of his baptism. As an adult he approached John the Baptizer to be baptized. --Matthew 3:13-17.

Regarding purgatory, as one replied, there is no mention of it in the inspired scriptures. It is simply a religious doctrine (teaching). I for one thus don't believe it although I understand that some choose to. And I respect others right to choose their beliefs.

Covergirl, I think it is nice that you and your fiance often get into these discussions. There are times that couple won't agree. True, it is much easier to have the same faith when married in the Lord. However, when that is not the case then couples can still amicably share differing ideas. I wish for you a happy relationship and forthcoming marriage.

Sincerely,
Victoria

Hi Reena,
Excellant reply on baptizm with scriptural support. As you pointed out, Mark 16:16 talks about "believes," Acts 2 - Pentecost people learned or were taught from the things they heard in their own language thus 3,000 were baptized (2:41); the eunch was taught the explanation of what he was reading and then was baptized in a body of water (8:26-40).

Great research and reminders. I appreciated looking up those scriptures again.

Wishing you well,
Victoria

Good Day SMears,

Thank you for sharing your researched scriptures on hell and Gehenna. It was not my intention to go to such depth on covergirls posting. However, I don't want to ignore the scriptures you shared. And I wrote I would discuss the Rich man and Lazarus if covergirl wished to.

The scriptures I shared were the result of my study and search into the scriptures which I whole heartedly accept as inpired of God.
2 Timothy 3:1-5. Although I am very proud to say I am a Witness of Jehovah, I choose not to make it a point on the forum because I'm not here to advocate or represent any religion. Only if someone privately e-mails will I discuss that aspect please. I know that you and others will kindly respect my wishes. I'm imperfect and can mistakenly write something that might might give a wrong impression as to their beliefs. Also, something that you or another writes, although sincerely meant, may give the wrong idea of their beliefs. Mentioning a relgion might make it appear to be a religious debate which goes against my conscience to do on the forum. It is the choice of the members to mention their religious back ground here or not.
Thank you.

Regarding Job, I am in agreement with what you wrote as I wrote accurately on him. I just briefly touched on it and mentioned one aspect of the several reasons why Job would have found relief with death. Also, my stating his reason for finding comfort in death was also accurate based on what the scriptures teach on the matter and his understanding of scriptures. The King James reads that he prayed to go to "the grave."

Whether a person, including myself, believes something doesn't make it true unless accurately substantuated by scriptures. True as you wrote, some people who believe in hell may want to die.
When a person is under extreem anxiety they may find comfort in the thought of death thus wanting to die rather than experience the trials that they are going thru. I whole heartedly agree with that being how some people think and feel. And unfortunately, some have gone to the point of attempted suicide or have done so.

Actually you brought up a great point. Thus if we can follow that line of thinking in this way we can get a clearer picture. When one is so upset that they would rather die then go thru what ever is upsetting I doubt at the time they are thinking in terms of being so bad that they would go to hell if they believe it is a literal place of fiery torment. I just don't think they think about it as so at the time. Why would a person who is already misrable over their life want to make things worse if they think they are going to hell?

If the person believes they will go to heaven (and the Bible does speak of some good people going there) then they might find death as a relief from their suffering on earth. But would one that has the heavenly hope really think out that I want to kill myself or simply die in order to get there faster? Then why is it that when a person has a heart attack they might grab their nitroglerin if they could get to a better place faster. (I'm not writing these questions for someone to reply to but to just think about.) I can't comment on their thoughts at the time because people differ and I'm not in their shoes. However, when one is so upset about something happening in their life they may want to die simply not to think about their misery without perhaps thinking thru their doctrinal beliefs. Possibly when it comes right down to it they may feel that in death they won't have to think about the emotional pain they are in. I can't discount the inspired word at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 which clearly says that when a person dies they are not conscious. That may have been Job's reasoning because there were no scriptures teaching a fiery hell or providing the heavenly hope at the time he was alive.

I wrote concerning what happens to a person at the time of death. Since "all scripture is inspired of God" I can't discount the scriptures although I just few of many as being truthful. However, any scripture that you wrote regarding going to heaven I am in total agreement with.

Regarding Dan. 12:2. Yes, when Michael stood up the way to heaven for those with the calling was provided. Also, the hope of "everlasting life" in the future for those who have an earthly hope. John 17:3; Ps. 37:10, 11
Yet, prior to that notice what verse 2 you indicated reads, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall wake up. . ." King James. That's correct just as Eccl. indicated they were so until they were raised. --Gen. 3:19
This is a wonderful inspired scripture of hope that I'm in agreement with.

Luke 16:20-24 is also an good scripture to drive home the point that Christ was illustrating as he often spoke in illustrations or parables. The Jerusalem Bible in a footnoe, acknowledges that it is a "parable in story form without reference to any historical personage." If we would take this literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of Abraham, one man. It would mean that the water on one's fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades and that a mere drop would bring relief to one suffering there. And if we were to take this literal then it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, then as a lover of truth I would find it difficult to use it as a basis for my faith. But I'm confident that the Bible does not contradict itself.

This parable does have a meaning or Christ would not have given it. In verse 14 the "rich man" represented the Pharisees. Lazarus the beggar represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic representive of a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a postiion of divine favor. The formerly favored ones were rejected by God as they were tormented by judgment messages that were delivered by the very ones whom they had despised. --Acts 5:33; 7:54

Matthew 5:22
The reference to Gehenna appears 12 times in the New Testament (Greek Scriptures.) Five times directly associated with fire. Some translations use the expression "hell fire" ( KJ, DY ), "fires of hell", and "fires of Gehenna".

There is a historical background to Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, which was outside the walls of Jerusalem. For a time it was used as a site of idolatrous worship, including child sacrifice. Interestingly, in the first century Gehenna was used as the incinerator for the garbage of Jerusalem. The vally had fires to which sulfur or brimstone was added to assist the burning. Bodies of dead animals and executed criminals were thrown in. Crimials who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb. Therefore, Jesus spoke of the casting of one's "whole body" into Gehenna. If thrown into the burning fire it was consumed. If it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or magots. (Mark 9: 47, 48) Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna. Thus it was not a place of conscious torment.

I can't see a loving God literally burning and tormenting either temporaily or continuiously even the most wicked person. He wouldn't do such a think.

At Matthew 10:28, we read where Jesus warned his hearers to "be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." There is no mention here of torment in the fires of Gehenna. Rather, he said to "fear him that can destroy in Gehenna." He refered to the "soul" separately emphasizing that God can destroy all of a person's life prospects thus having no hope of resurrection. In view of the scriptures the refernces to the 'fiery Gehenna' has the same meaning as the 'lake of fire' of Revelation 21:8, destruction, "second death."

Matthew 25:4-46
this is a wonderful illustration of those that will inherit the Kingdom with Christ as bridegroom. It also spoke of when he would take his glorious throne and separate people with attitudes either like that of sheep or goats. And just as he would not literally separate animals (in this text) then he would not literally throw goats into a literal fire. And as the goat is figurtive the fire is figurtive of complete destruction.
vs. 46 reads, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment ["lopping off," Int; Greek, ko'la.sin ] but the rightous into life eternal." KJ
The Emphatic Diaglott reads "cutting off" instead of punishing. Like lopping off brances of trees, pruning, to restrain, to repress, to chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, society, to restrain which is esteemed as punishment. Rightous go off into life whereas the wicked to cutting off from life, or death.
2 Thess. 1:9

The ancient Babylonians, Assyrians and Egyptions believed in hell fire. Also Buddhism feathures hot and cold hells.
The Religions of Babylonia and Assyria, The Book of the Dead, The Encyclopedia Americans,

I think that it is nice that we can amicably share here. Regarding what I wrote, I don't think there is a need to go into it further in this folder "Spirituality for Anxiety." If anyone wishes to discuss this further or has any related questions please personally e-mail me.

Thank your for listening or shall I say reading.

Sincerely,
Victoria

Victoria,
Thank you so much for your long response. I was not asking for a rebutal nor an explanation on why you believe the way you do.
In my post, I was simply sharing with you my thoughts and beliefs and the understanding that you were speaking from your Jehovah's witness point of view. Personally, I believe it's important, when sharing with others, that they understand where each individual is coming from or they could be mistaken for a particular belief, when in fact, they are of another faith.
We are all representatives, no matter how you look at it. We all represent our faith in the things we say and share with one another. Even in sharing our thoughts on particular scripture verses. It is extremely important to note, that we all share the "truth" as we have come to know and understand the truth. We don't all agree on everything regarding Christianity and the bible, and I believe that's OK.
Covergirl left her thread open to everyone and wanted to hear how we all thought and believed.
In my responses, I simply shared what it was to me to show that the bible painted a different picture to me in my beliefs and relationship with God.

Dear SMears,
Thank you for your kind and loving reply. I understand where you are coming from. I also appreciate the scripture that you are sharing from the Proberbs. As a matter of fact today's sermon that I attended was on the Proverbs and I especially liked the topic.

Wishing you well,
Victoria