As you know from listening to lesson/session 12, I didn't 'get it' either. But once I accepted that we don't do ANYthing that doesn't have a payoff...[couldn't figure that out either for awhile]...I finally figured out how to Dig deeper than just not wanting to be this way, and deeper than getting attention.

Let me use this as an example: If I give money to a charity, what's my payoff? I get to feel good about myself. I get to feel helpful...

Let's take something that isn't quite as easy to see...I may Want to get over my agoraphobia, but it's SAFER to Stay agoraphobic. If I stay this way, I don't have to feel the uncomfortable feelings of challenging it. [that's just ONE payoff]

There is a Payment AND a Payoff for every single thing we say and do...

How about some of our "graduates" coming in with some posts that illustrate this FACT.

Once you catch this concept you will Never be the same-and that's OK. Love and Peace, C.

I am not sure if my comment will apply to what you are talking about.

My Pay off is recovered from Anxiety/depression and able to contribute to other people to help them understand or feel better about their anxiety/depression. Once I see them improved or make any processing is payoff back to me help me feel good about what I can give to them.

Carolyn,

I still haven't figured this out either. I am doing great! I have become the outgoing and happy person I used to be. I may be headed for a huge promotion too and I'm not afraid. I'm looking forward to the challenge! I will give this some more thought and hopefully I will be able to report back to you what my payment and payoffs have been. Thanks for everything, Carolyn!

One of my payoffs that I'm still working on is that my anxiety allows me to stay safe because no one gets too close. The idea is that I can't get hurt so easily that way. And I won't lose control of my life.

I'm working on it with the help of a few friends. Its going to take time. And the people who've chosen to stick around are sometimes at the receiving end of some very unfair comparisons with others who have hurt me terribly in the past. Once I can see the parallel between the present experience and the past one I try to explain it so that it doesn't seem like I'm just being nasty. But when I'm in the middle of it, for the life of me, it seems so real.

For me,
I guess im the opposite of Deb45. I was very trusting, whether someone hurt me or not. So, when i became agoraphobic for 6 yrs, Like carolyn said, "I felt safe" although i didnt at the time know what I had or why I had it.
I think deep down, I thought it was payment for not being who i was support to be. I spent lots of time in the past in my mind and the hurts Id encountered.

So, Payback for me, was when i realized, I wasnt safe at all, that i was denying who I could be, by being who I wasnt. Knowing that overcoming anything, whether anxiety, panic attacks, agoraphobia, or broken arm or leg, etc. all comes with pain! My payback was allowing myself to Feel the Fear and do it anyway!!! With a deep seeded knowledg, I was going to be "ME" whether my negative thoughts liked it or not!!!!

Payback is being Who I AM!!! Not who I was!
Its enjoying LIFE, Grabbing every moment, and sucking up the Joy!!! Are their still nano seconds anxiety tries to sneak in, YUP,, do I listen,, NOPE!!! Its ALL good!!! Nelly

"The courage to change" is NOW one of my favorite tapes in the program. Love it and listen to it for a boost now and then to remind myself that I had the courage to change.
Hey Carolyn, I'm assuming you're referring to the payoffs we got in the past from staying the way we were with panic, anxiety and depression.
My payoffs were numerous, and I really think if we're to be honest here, everyone's payoffs from staying stuck are.

It was easier for me to stay home and not drive than to attack the fear of driving/panic attacks while driving. I didn't have to venture past my safe zone. I didn't WANT to experience the insecure feeling of driving alone, the helpless feeling that left me angry with myself. I didn't want to face and work through the fear.

My anxiety, oh my goodness, just one or two confessions here - . Holding on to my anxiety and bouts of depression allowed me to stay stuck in the past and yet at the same time, bury some of the memories. I didn't know how to effectively cope with some of the issues and the rest gave me excuses for some of my negative behavior.
When I "stayed stuck" with the anxiety and depression, I could avoid certain social invitations that I just simply could have said "NO" to. My physical symptoms of A&D gave me "reasons" to back out of invitations. I wasn't assertive enough to decline politely and the headaches, dizziness, feelings of weakness, stomach pain etc. allowed me to have my version of a real reason not to attend.
My A&D allowed me to give myself multiple reasons to continue beating myself up verbally/emotionally (negative self talk). Then, once I started in with that, I'd think up millions of reasons to worry about everything and everyone else in life to try to distract myself from my negative self talk. Nasty cycle.

All those years, I never realized (fully anyway, who are we kidding? ) what I was doing, but OMGoodness, I got good at it. Negative thinking at it's best. No more, and I'm proud of me !

As Nelly said, yes there are "still nano seconds when the anxiety tries to sneak in", but NO WAY, now I know too much and have come too far!!!!

oops, forgot the payment I had to give in exchange for staying stuck with anxiety and depression -
what was happening in the past -
increased anxiety
low self esteem
bouts of depression
inability to drive my myself
ever increasing agoraphobia
constant obsessive thinking and worrying...

and then, years later -thank God, I found
THE COURAGE TO CHANGE!

I'd say some of my secondary gains were avoiding making decisions and avoiding things I disliked doing.

Here's an example: Several years ago I suffered from mild heat exhaustion after a day at the soccer field. Ever since then, I worried and became panicky about how much water for my intake and and how hot it was. The anxiety it produced gave me symptoms similar to that when I experienced the heat exhaustion. So that became an excuse for getting out of something I disliked doing (like worming in the goats in Texas July heat). I don't feel proud of that at all, but I see it now for what it was. Another one has been feeling afraid to go beyond my undergraduate's degree. What if...... But I know I could do it, esp. since I'm just about to complete the program.

Staying anxious got me out of a lot of things I didn't like--going into stores, avoiding people and situations, making decisions. That kind of thing.

Man,

this thread got me thinking about this. I think one of my biggest secondary gains is that I feel so guilty that some of my family members are so unhappy. I actually started having panic attacks again, and it really hasn't seemed like there's been that much more stress in my life.

Today, I'm actually feeling better, getting back to good habits again...and all of a sudden I'm thinking of my mom, and my sister, and I've got a project at work that involves helping someone with a major personal problem. I freaked out over a project I took on at church, and couldn't make it good enough or big enough to soothe the guilt. I write letters to my senators, and letters to newspapers about things that I think need to be seen or noticed. The list goes on. Most of the time I really do enjoy doing these things, and helping others. Its those times when I get obsessive about it that I think its a sign of a problem. Somehow I feel like I can't go forward with my life and be happy knowing that people I love are miserable, even if its not my fault, and even if most of it is due to their own choices.

Deb,
I understand completely.Maybe it just takes each of us different time levels to realize whats happening.
For the last 8 yrs my son was hooked on prescription codene. He took up to 60 a week, could of killed him many times. We paid to send him to rehab, thinking instant cure. Worked for a short time, but then he went back. Now, I worried, cried, got extra wrinkles i didnt need, because I LOVE him!!! My problem became clear when i realized at the time he was 29 yrs old, been married for the third time, and though i had racked my brain as to WHAT i had done to cause him to be this way. I couldnt Find anything!!!! You know Why?
Because HE CHOSE this!!! Thats when i decided, i could no longer make my own self sick because i didnt have HIS answer for him!!
He had to find that himself... so my husband and I prayed fervently the last 7 yrs , didnt push him, inquire about his problem and STOPPED beating ourselves up!!
God is good!!! The last year,, he hasnt had ANY meds!!!! He did it on his own,, just as WE ALL have to do!!! Your right Deb, its NOT your fault, let go of the guilty, let go of Fixing your family, Let God and let GOD!!!
You will be less anxious, less worried, and have more joy... I didnt stop LOVING my son at all, if anything, i Love him more.... But i had to leave his been helped to God... Love ya Nelly

To finally get 35 years of anxiety out of me has opened my world back up to what it was when I was young but to get here was the toughest thing I've ever done in my life bar none. How do I feel now? Maybe Jon Bon Jovi says it best with this song....because now...it's "my life"....

"This ain't a song for the broken-hearted
A silent prayer for the faith-departed
I ain't gonna be just a face in the crowd
You're gonna hear my voice
When I shout it out loud

It's my life
It's now or never
I ain't gonna live forever
I just want to live while I'm alive

My heart is like an open highway
Like Frankie said
I did it my way
I just wanna live while I'm alive
It's my life

This is for the ones who stood their ground
For Tommy and Gina who never backed down
Tomorrow's getting harder make no mistake
Luck ain't even lucky
Got to make your own breaks

It's my life
And it's now or never
I ain't gonna live forever
I just want to live while I'm alive

My heart is like an open highway
Like Frankie said
I did it my way
I just want to live while I'm alive
'Cause it's my life

Better stand tall when they're calling you out
Don't bend, don't break, baby, don't back down

It's my life
And it's now or never
'Cause I ain't gonna live forever
I just want to live while I'm alive

My heart is like an open highway
Like Frankie said
I did it my way
I just want to live while I'm alive

It's my life
And it's now or never
'Cause I ain't gonna live forever
I just want to live while I'm alive

My heart is like an open highway
Like Frankie said
I did it my way
I just want to live while I'm alive
'Cause it's my life!

So this is where I am:-)

Just realized this am, hadn't gotten out of bed yet, but the racing thoughts have come. Put on my relaxation CD and here comes the feeling of having a brick on my chest. I'm really afraid because I HAVE to go to work. Sure my job can be pretty stressful, some days are hell days, but its ok most the time. But the thought that I can't really take time off because I am behind on the bills, and I'm my own breadwinner. I don't work, no money, then what? I wish that there were a less stressful job I could mix in with my regular one. Maybe do some consulting or something...administrative instead of all the emotional stuff with caring for peoples pets.

I was on my way to work last week and panicked in the car. I didn't want to go. Because I hated it. Is this it for me? Am I always going to be exhausted after work to the point of dropping off to sleep on the couch and then waking up at midnight to go to bed? Am I going to need antidepressants just to get through my workday? I'm scared to quit, because of the money and all the work I did to get here. But I really want to get out of traditional clinical practice. I want to do charity work, doing spays and neuters to reduce the unwanted pet population. I want to actually just get my own damned supplies, hop in my car, and go help people who can't afford some of the high prices...which are now starting to mirror other healing professions. Maybe I will. Then I don't have to put up with the office politics crap, and the pressure, yet folly of helping people decide whether to make due with some pet health problems, or go get an MRI. Dude, its a DOG. I know people love thier dogs. But hey, yours gets $1500 workup, and over across the way, a healthy one is getting euthanized because no one has a place for it. It doesn't make sense. I feel like my job is not only stressful, but lacks purpose.
So, after all that.. Another secondary gain of panic.

I guess I was holding on to the anxiety because I was tired of being the only responsible person in my immediate family. By holding onto the anxiety and depression, I was weaker than they were and therefore did not have to take on the burden of their problems. This includes an alcoholic sister who has been in rehab and suicidal over the past year, a Mother who is addicted to narcotics and who has suffered from depression and anxiety all of her life, a Father in the early stages of dementia, and a beautiful little boy who needs my constant love and attention. Not to mention, three rental properties where my tenants also need a Mother sometime!

I think I'm holding on to anxiety this time for the same reason I was holding onto it 20 years ago: Because that's the only thing I seem to have 100% control of. What I mean by that is, everything else around me has fallen apart. THIS is the only thing I've been able to hold on to. The only thing that hasn't left me, the only thing I haven't lost, the only thing that hasn't betrayed me, etc.

It's hell. I hate it. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. But it's sooo familiar, and the familiar is "safe" isn't it? And when something feels safe, it becomes tooo comfortable. Even when it's the most unhealthy, destructive thing in our lives.

What was my Payoff for wanting to get well and to be the person I used to be?

First of all I was fighting with myself I wanted to get rid of this anxiety, depression, panic attacks and agoraphobia but it was tooo painful to go through the door and get to the other side. I would rather stay where I am at, I could handle this, but yet I could'nt! How did I ever get to this point in my life where I had to struggle to live. I hated my life, everything I did was hard, I felt hopeless, I did not like myself, or love myself, I wanted people to like me I had to work at making them see that I was fun, and a great person. Why was this so hard!!

My husband one day FORCED ME INTO THE CAR TO GO TO AN APPOINTMENT, I was so frightened, I did not want to go. He pulled me by my arm and told me I was going, I am not going to die, I will be fine. I did not believe him. He didn't know the feelings I would feel and the anxiety I would have. And thos terrible body symptoms!!

My payoff was that I got in the car went through the door many, many, times and each time it got easier and easier until finally TODAY I AM TOTALLY FREE! It had been 4 years since I went through the program. I cannot say it was an easy thing to do, but if I would have never done it I don't know where I would be today.

I thank my husband for putting up with me and giving me that PUSH THAT I NEEDED TO SEE THAT THE WAY I WAS THINKING WAS TOTALLY WRONG. Today I am a different person a better person than I was before. My thinking is different, I love myself, I am a positive person, I respect myself, and no one can step in my way anymore. I had the courage to change, and I changed for a better and happier life.

Dona Dry